Science vs Religion, part one million

2008 June 11
by takahe83

So I was reading a couple of metareviews (i.e. reviews of reviews) on Dawkin’s book The God Delusion, and I now have to bregrudgingly admit that reading them and some of the reviews made me think that the book itself might almost be worth taking a look at someday, after all. [The review at Science covers the books strengths and weaknesses the best, or so I hear.]

Originally I would have told you in a somewhat aggrieved tone of voice that there is first no way to go about proving or disproving the existence of God, and second that writing a book with the title and tone of The God Delusion is no way to sway people on something they are so fundamentally committed to; that is to say, their religion.

Although I still personally think that you can’t prove or disprove God’s existence, the metareviewer brings up an interesting point – shouldn’t it matter more whether the followers of whichever religion believe they can rationalize God, more than what I think about it? Seeing as a religion is usually made up of the beliefs of, well, believers, rather than non-believers. In my experience, I would say American Christians tend to think that, in addition to whatever other bedrock of belief exists, they can also ‘prove’ the existence of their God. I remember an activity my little sister was sent home to do when she was attending a medium-core Christian summer camp: she was told “Go out on a walk. Point out 5 things that only God could have created.” [This was EXTREMELY ANNOYING in more ways than one, but that’s another post entirely.] “Faith” is then the trump card for when this (sometimes specious) reasoning falls through. So perhaps it is not so off-base to attack the rational basis of belief in some work (like in The God Delusion!) I don’t know whether this in itself would actually be enough, however, given that there’s still other basis’s for belief this argument would not touch.

The major flaw of the book, as the reviewer at Science writes, is in its tone, at least if it actually seeks to convince its target audience. Correct? As Shermer writes:

When I received the bound galleys for The God Delusion, I cringed at the title, wishing it were more neutral (why not, say, The God Question?). As I read the book, I found myself wincing at Dawkins’s references to religious people as “faith-heads,” as being less intelligent, poor at reasoning, or even deluded, and to religious moderates as enablers of terrorism. I shudder because I have religious friends and colleagues who do not fit these descriptors, and I empathize at the pain such pejorative appellations cause them. In addition, I am not convinced by Dawkins’s argument that without religion there would be “no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as ‘Christ-killers,’ no Northern Ireland ‘troubles’….” In my opinion, many of these events–and others often attributed solely to religion by atheists–were less religiously motivated than politically driven, or at the very least involved religion in the service of political hegemony.

I agree completely, although I’ll nitpick here about his last statement. It’s true, religion is not the sole cause or the ultimate cause of “politically” (should I read “power”?) driven events. Rather, religion is usually the wedge used to split a group of people into discernibly different sections, so one group can gain power over another. However, there are lots of adequately shaped pieces of scrap about that can be used as a wedge in the same way – race fits extremely well, gender has practically wedged itself in every door (I blame gender for that, mind you. If gender didn’t want to be used, gender wouldn’t exist in this analogy in such a suggestively wedge-like shape), and class, language, and culture are also easy to use. Shermer is right in that these events would still occur without the differences in religion between peoples. But he substitutes the vanilla “politically driven”, which doesn’t act as a stand-in in nearly the same way. “Politically driven’, which I’m assuming means questing after power, is the end, but it isn’t the means – the means could be any of the wedges above. Taking away one wedge wouldn’t rid us of this quest for power, certainly; we’d just resort to using a different wedge to split a group of people into those with power and those without.

In some of Dawkin’s other works I’ve read, his tone has struck me in exactly the same way – harsh, and inappropriate to the people to whom he speaks. Here I must elucidate you on the difference between politicians and scientists, or politicians and critics, as I myself was elucidated a while ago. The difference, were you feeling ungenerous with your words, is just that: tact. You might complain that Dawkins lacks all tact in speaking about religious people, and that perhaps if he compromised his message or at least his language he might win more converts (or unconverts? Who can say).

Certainly you could argue that he’s doing science more harm than good by widening the gulf still more between the religious and scientists, two groups that don’t have to be separate today and certainly should not become more separate in the future. These would be legitimate concerns if Dawkins were a politician: there the impetus is on convincing and persuading, by whatever means necessary, rather than standing uncompromisingly on the facts as you see them. The latter is what Dawkins, as the scientist, does: he presents a body of thought to convince rationally rather than reaching a mutually tenable position. As he sees it, his job is not to persuade or compromise, but instead to present ‘the facts’ and hope that in time more will start to share his position. It’s necessary to have people out there doing this, as well, in my opinion.

30 Responses leave one →
  1. 2008 June 11

    My main issue is that he presents a false dilemma. While he gives a paragraph or two to Pantheists and Deists, for the most part he presents his book as a choice between rational science and supernatural religion. The problem is that religion actually has a continuum with Supernaturalists at one end, and Naturalists at the other and most people in between. For the most part Dawkins paints them all with the same brush. Likewise, he treats both liberals, moderates and fundamentalists essentially the same and propagates the myth that liberals somehow have less faith than fundamentalists.

    By doing this, he plays right into the hands of people like Pat Robertson, and other fundamentalists. It makes it seem as if society needs to choose between dry and often overly intellectual Humanism and Fundamentalist Evangelism. Given that choice, unfortunately most people will join the camp of Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell. In other words, he does their work for them.

    There are many kinds of theists that do not require an ounce of Supernaturalism and are not at odds with science. Dawkins does an injustice to those faiths even by using such a title. “God” is just a word, and ultimately the existence of “God” is a question for theologists, philogists and philosophers not Scientists. To assert the existence of God does not constitute a scientific argument for most people but rather one of meaning, culture and value. Sagan understood this, and made his case accordingly.

    In our modern society we are quickly losing the middle. Lines are drawn in the sand and there is less and lees room for the rational middle ground. While I think Dawkin’s points are important and necessary issues for society to consider, I long for the next Sagan or Einstein who can illuminate the middle ground that can support the needs, culture and values of all humanity.

  2. 2008 June 11

    Terry Eagleton, the literary critic, rightly skewers Dawkins here: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html

  3. 2008 June 11
    Thomas permalink

    That review is ridiculous. Eagleton talks about God as if he’s some undefinable link that people have to the spiritual and the transcendent. Um…if we’re going to talk like that then there is no way to argue against God. If he’s just some personal experience and nothing more. The reality is that religious people DON’T believe that. They think God is a being. An intelligence. One that interacts with people and affects the world. They believe that he even had a physical body (in the form of Jesus)and that this man was more than man and could perform miracles. And there is no evidence of any of that. And so Dawkins is right to mock these people.

    Now if you want to argue about God and then say that “Well, really what I mean is that God is kind of like a force, like love or something, that binds things together. God isn’t an old man with a beard that can interact with people and cause plagues or speak through burning bushes, etc.” Well, then what the hell are we argueing about. You’re whole concept of God is that…what…”something is out there”. Well, I agree with that. SOmething made things start. And if it wasn’t a “being” then who cares if it’s called “God” or if it’s called “the Big Bang”. We’re just talking about abstracts. So what are you doing worshiping it and saying it talks to you and loves you?

  4. 2008 June 11
    Thomas permalink

    And everyone needs to shut up about Dawkins’ being mean to people.

    Oh I see. You would be totally understanding and kind to me if I told you that I was absolutely sure that leprechauns exist. You would just gently tried to persuade me I’m wrong.

    Of course not. You would say “Where’s your evidence?”. And when I could produce none of value you would laugh and call me an idiot.

    That’s the way it OUGHT to be.

  5. 2008 June 11

    So wait. Unless religious people define their beliefs in the exact parameters of nonbelievers, they’re idiots who don’t deserve anything other than ridicule?

    Yeah Tom, that’s really productive. I think I’m going to start carelessly disrespecting people’s beliefs. I mean, they are stupid for believing them and so what should they expect, right?

  6. 2008 June 11

    I have a better idea. We should ban from civil society anyone who has any sort of religious beliefs. They are all morally unserious right? And we have no time for morally unserious people, or plebians who don’t understand anything, right?

  7. 2008 June 11

    Grammar and spelling aside, Thomas does approach a substantive point, being the argument that any ideology (including specific religions, but not including the abstraction “religion”) makes specific claims upon reality, and should be challenged on the basis of these claims. After all, no one bats an eye when cargo cults are derided for failing to – pardon the pun – supply the goods. However, it is a hard fact that certain Christians throw a hissy when someone attempts to challenge claims their religion makes upon reality, such as historical accounts given in the Bible. Now, a reasonable counterpoint is that it is silly to “undermine” a religion by disproving some of its more trivial claims (e.g., the Biblical allusion to a Pi that is exactly 3). The line between spiteful nitpicking (which is a key accusation leveled against Dawkins) and serious critique is blurry, but it is not so blurry that we cannot distinguish and respect the latter category.

  8. 2008 June 11

    And I agree that serious critique is a good thing. Where I differ (vehemently in fact) is this idea that critique requires us to insult and demean people of faith.

    As a general rule, I don’t like the idea of disdainfully attacking someone’s deeply held spiritual beliefs, regardless of how implausible they sound. There’s something cruel in trying to “debunk” as it were the beliefs that give meaning to many lives.

  9. 2008 June 11

    Pardon the bluntness, but would you then consider it a bad thing to disdainfully attack the theology of Christian Identity movements? I am trying to understand how general of a rule you conceive this to be.

  10. 2008 June 11
    Thomas permalink

    I’m sorry I don’t proofread enough for you, Dmitry. I have to admit that I don’t care enough about the United States of Jamerica, as much as I do enjoy posting here, to spend too much time laboring over my spelling and grammar. Especially, when my thoughts seem to me to be otherwise clear.

    Jamelle, I think it’s “cruel” to tell people things that aren’t true. Truth matters to me. And so I don’t have a problem debunking things that aren’t true. So while you think it’s fine to, for example, convince children that they can pray to Jesus and he’ll fix their problems to me that is “cruel”.

    But no, you’re right. No matter how much the truth might hurt…we shouldn’t share it. Yeah. There’s really nothing at all wrong with a delusion if it makes people feel better. And, of course, a lot of this stuff makes people feel worse. They feel guilty all the time. I did. Actually, I still do. Even though I’m not religious now at all I still censor myself; I even occasionally censor my own thoughts because I’m afraid that something bad is gonna happen to me. It’s reflexive. I have to remind myself that I haven’t done anything wrong unless I actual DO or SAY something bad.

  11. 2008 June 11

    But that’s the thing Thomas, you have no idea whether what you’re saying is “true” or not. It is impossible to have that sort of metaphysical certainty. It is the height of arrogance to believe that you have the answer to a question that has vexed countless people for the whole of human history.

    You don’t have the truth, you have a hunch. You’re willing to bet a lot on that hunch, but it’s a hunch nonetheless. And by virtue of it being a hunch, it is no more valid or invalid than any other hunch. You should at least admit that.

  12. 2008 June 11

    Dmitry,

    I make a distinction between attacking “belief” and “faith” – which I think is cruel – and criticizing theological beliefs, which is not just acceptable, but necessary.

    Now sometimes it’s the case that you can’t do one without the other, but I feel strongly enough about the importance of rigorous theology that I’m willing to make an exception to the “general rule.”

  13. 2008 June 11

    To clarify for those watching at home, I do agree entirely that the “debunking” of any religion is a dead-end enterprise, but for a different reason – merely that religions (or any ideology) are not the sum of their claims upon reality, and are not “false” even if every one of their claims is unsubstantiated.

    Now, I was going to post this regardless, but Thomas’s response compels an elaboration. Christianity as a religion does not have its truthfulness hinge upon the empirical verification of the specific doctrines it advocates, because as any religion it is a paradigm and not a collection of alleged facts. With respect to paradigms, someone – Kuhn, perhaps – has said that any theory (religion) can survive in the light of any evidence if we take its plasticity as unlimited. And that is exactly what has occurred with Christianity as certain evidence was brought to bear upon its empirical claims – the religion was not falsified, but was adapted, remaining “true” all the while. Hence, to say that debunking Christianity (monotheism, religion in general, etc.) is equivalent to debunking “things that aren’t true” is an error at best, an attempt at perverting the issue at worst.

  14. 2008 June 12
    takahe83 permalink

    Lonnie: I’m annoyed if he gives us a false dilemma, because I also think the choice between religion and science is a completely false choice. Too often you see those on the religious right (like those who gave us the Creationism Museum) present false dilemmas about “hot” science topics like evolution: either you accept evolution based only on the specious fossil record evidence we have for human evolution, or you accept that God created everything. No, that’s a false choice. Generally we look at human evolution through what we can garner about the evolution of all creatures, and not the other way around. But you’d hope that any somewhat reputable scientist would not fall down the same logical well.

    Dmitri: Now we’ve gone full circle again. Is it possible to rationally disprove an entire religion? I believe not. But if the believers don’t think their religion can ever be “debunked” either, then why is there such a huge backlash against things that supposedly contradict it? (here I am thinking, again, about the religious right and evolution).

  15. 2008 June 12

    Thomas, I’m a religious person. And I am a religious person that attempts to explore one’s own faith in the theological academic setting (which is full of self critique, by the way). First I went to undergrad at a bible college (”conservative”), second an MA at a very “liberal” seminary and third, now onto a phd at a Catholic school – all in theology, ethics, and history. I can say from both personal experience and my theological training, that Eagleton’s review hits the spot, because he first starts with the point that those who don’t know a system can’t critique that system well. I would be surprised if Dawkins knew or read some of the theologians that Eagleton mentioned, because Dawkins sure didn’t act like he had.

    I’m sorry you apparently had a pretty shitty experience, but, this is also another fundamental place where Dawkins goes wrong as well, your experience doesn’t encompass Christianity today, much less Christianity in the past. Christianity and its theology is too diverse and nuanced to be so easily lumped in as Dawkins did. Perhaps if every time one said Christianity, if one meant fundamentalist, American, (maybe Dispensationalist) Christian, then Dawkins and your critique would start to honestly describe such a phenomenon.

    Then again, ironically, Dawkins would be describing something very similar to himself, as argued in Chris Hedges latest book I Don’t Believe in Atheists (http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Believe-Atheists-Chris-Hedges/dp/141656795X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213263675&sr=8-1). However, if you think Hedges is too one sided, he just previously wrote American Facists: The Christian Right and the War on America.

    In the end, Dawkins is rightly skewered because he wrote a crappy book. He didn’t say anything new, he did a generally shitty job at it, and there are better people who have made better arguments long before Dawkins came around. Theology (in general), because it takes critique seriously, actually likes to engage those who make good arguments. This is why I don’t give more than a rats ass about Dawkins: He is underwhelming and there are far better atheists to engage, ones who are worth the time.

  16. 2008 June 12
    Dmitry permalink

    If you are asking why anyone should bother pushing or resisting “debunking” of religions, it is because religions (and ideologies in general – there is nothing peculiar to “religion” in this analysis) do not exist in a social vacuum. The standing of an ideology, the degree to which it is seen as true and important by social agents does depend on its accuracy (again, cults are a good and blunt example). So while it is fallacious to jump to the conclusion that an ideology as such can be true or untrue, it is hardly surprising that supporters of an ideology will fight for others to see it as true – and in a scientistic culture, this will involve producing “evidence” that appears to support their ideology and rejecting evidence which does not.

  17. 2008 June 12
    takahe83 permalink

    d. w. horstkoetter: Two points:
    I’m interested to know which of these you think is more important to the makeup of a religion – what its adherents consider important beliefs and practices, or what the theologians of that religion think. Sure, you could argue that (in the Catholic church for example) the theologians create decrees for the religion, and the masses, no pun intended, accept said decrees. But American Catholics in recent times have deviated substantially from many beliefs held by the Roman Catholic Church, as one counterexample. Isn’t a religion fundamentally made up by what its adherents believe?

    Have regular churchgoers read Rahner, Moltmann, and Eriugena? Have most of them even made it through the entire Bible? I don’t want to overgeneralize here, but I’d have to say the answer for most would be a resounding no. That doesn’t mean religion isn’t an important part of their life, it just means the more esoteric bits of Christian theology don’t have much import in how they think about their religion.

    So now you have to ask what Dawkin’s purpose in writing this book was. To convince the theologians? I would say not – Dawkins after all has certainly not put out anything overly academic here. He wants it to get read, after all. Isn’t he targeting American Christians with this book?

    I’d also be more interested in hearing what Dawkins got wrong, rather than what he omitted. You say he wrote a crappy book, but offer no specifics to back it up really. There are going to be omissions in a book attempting to encompass religion as an entity in the space of less than 400 pages, but if they aren’t vital to the religion as the reader understands it, what then would be Dawkin’s impetus to include them?

  18. 2008 June 12

    So now you have to ask what Dawkin’s purpose in writing this book was. To convince the theologians? I would say not – Dawkins after all has certainly not put out anything overly academic here. He wants it to get read, after all. Isn’t he targeting American Christians with this book?

    I think Horstkoetter’s point still holds though. Even if regular churchgoers aren’t familiar with the theological foundations of their beliefs, that still doesn’t mean that Dawkins isn’t making a gross overgeneralization. “Regular churchgoers,” as you know, is a huge umbrella; covering hundreds of different denominations and millions of people, many of whom do have a sophisticated understanding of their religion.

    Dawkins characterization of American Christians – and admittedly, I haven’t read the entire book – seems deeply unfair because it glosses over the nuance inherent in Christianity. And if you’re going to write a book called the “God Delusion,” then it would probably be prudent to at least acknowledge said nuance.

  19. 2008 June 12

    One of the points that is made by the Dawkins crowd is that Religions makes truth claims and therefore it is fair game to test those. In circumstances where it is the intent of religions to actually make claims about history, Geology or biology then it is fair to test those claims. Often though, religious truths are never meant as scientific truths but rather spiritual or metaphorical ones. In that case, it would be absurd to test the biology or mathematical accuracy of stories. It would be like “disproving” Aesop, by producing evidence that foxes don’t really eat grapes.

    Even worse, by testing such claims as if any religious text must be scientifically true, Dawkins is ironically supporting the claims of fundementalists over mederates and liberals. You see, fundementalists believe that only people who understand religious texts as literally and scientifically accurate are true believers. Apparently Dawkins agrees with them.

    Furthermore, a significant number of people don’t believe in God as if he is an old man sitting up on a throne somewhere. Once again, Dawkins supports the likes of Pat Roberson by asserting that their definition is the “Right” one and more naturalistic definitions of God are either wrong or a sign of weak faith. My wife spent time in both Northern Ireland and Croatia monitoring trials and faciliting dialogue between opposition parties. She sees promoting peace as part of her faith as a liberal Christian, and was willing to risk her life doing what she sees as “God’s work”. That hardly sounds like weak faith to me. Dawkins does people like my wife a disservice by discounting their version of God and faith as unimportant to the larger debate within society. Ironically, both I and my wife are generally the first to support the rights of Atheists, and I’m personally a big fan of folks like Carl Sagan. By alienating liberals and moderates, Dawkins only stands to lose allies in Athiests’ and humanists’ struggle for acceptance within society.

  20. 2008 June 12

    takahe83,

    I actually did give some points where Dawkins went wrong — seeming to have not engaged much written by well known, respected scholars and to grossly over generalize so as to find some people/thing to bash (read here: straw person argument) — and then I also gave two outside sources — Eagleton’s review and Hedges’ book that strike at Dawkins’ content and arguments. However, I can say more, although it will be short in the amount I could say because I will only mention a couple of rather important points instead of exhaustively (or assert that I am exhaustively) address Dawkins point by point.

    Christianity is actually a continuum in its general beliefs and to treat it as a binary (to acknowledge some theologians) or to only focus on Christians who do not seek to explore their faith (which again is a very, very big group with different beliefs) is methodologically unsound. I don’t even have to deal with the content of Dawkins material because the way he argues is impoverished.

    Now, for as to the content — the retelling of Enlightenment narrative and ignoring advances (i.e. Khun was mentioned earlier by someone) since the Age of Reason (which was centuries ago) — is equally impoverished and androcentric, not to mention colonial in its endeavors. Science and rationalism isn’t the rubric or matrix through which we humans understand our lives, it is merely a facet of a very complex being and society.

    Now, since I spent a paragraph mentioning others more interesting and sound than Dawkins, I’ll mention a few. There is Friedrich Nietzsche, a classic, but there are also some rather new philosophers and psychoanalysts who interestingly reject Nietzsche’s over all conclusion of Christianity and have begun to engage Christianity in an interesting way. Alain Badiou, Slavoj Zizek, and Giorgio Agamben (all important Continental philosophers of acclaim and one of “rock star status”) find the in Christianity roots for revolution and radical social change.

    On omission. Of course there will be omission in a 400 page book that misstates who it is addressing, or addresses one part of Christianity as if its the whole. There is also the omission of understanding (or reading) those who actually professionally explored faith, much less those who have other day jobs but take their faith very seriously in self critical terms. I have little pity for this, otherwise I could ignore Dawkins if I were to write a book on atheists. Such poor argumentation shows that one either doesn’t understand what they’re critiquing, or is trying to sell books.

    Also, in theology, there are a couple of important practices. First, as I have methodologically done in my comments here, tried to address the specific movements that I am talking about in accurate terms (I’ve tried to narrow my words). Second, it is common practice in theology to learn how to summarize well. I’ve tried to summarize a few very specific, but very important points, well. If Dawkins is to venture in with that pride of his, and not to play well in the discussion (because thats what theology is), then he’ll get the thrashing he deserves. Note I didn’t say he was being mean, I was saying he couldn’t summarize well and acted like he is the arbiter of Christian thought when he, for all intents and purposes, doesn’t acknowledge its existence. Generally in an academic paper at any level, if the summarization is off, normally the author didn’t understand what they were summarizing or were abusing or not giving a fair reading to the opposition.

    I’m accusing Dawkins of babbling nonsense, which is exactly what Eagleton does. I have to guess and support Dawkins’ arguments with my own training and mind to make him half-way plausible. This is an indication of bad argumentation. There is a vast world out there of Christian history and discussion and I have to advocate for Dawkins for his book to make legitimate sense? To be able to sell many copies of said impoverished work means you’re inflaming a discussion, not contributing to it.

  21. 2008 June 13
    takahe83 permalink

    All reasonable points. I admit, I committed a faux pas here in that I didn´t actually read the book before I commented about it. So I can’t defend the book, and more than that I’m not even sure that I would want to had I read it. I’d heard that the book didn’t deal with anything after the Age of Reason, which seems an inexcuseably large omission – if I tried to debunk astronomy, for example, without mentioning any astronomical advances after Galileo, then I would give you a completely inaccurate portrayal of our universe as we know it. Next time I’ll deal with something I know more about.

  22. 2008 June 13

    Hey, don’t say that! This was a really good post, and sparked a really good discussion!

  23. 2008 June 13

    I agree with Jamelle. It’s a good a worthy discussion, so you were right to post it. Besides, you said from the beginning that were only considering reading the book. For that matter, I still consider the book worth reading, and I’m even kind of glad Dawkins pubished it. It has stirred up alot of good debate within the larger society, even if it may not have had the outcome Dawkins has intended. I’ve also noticed that when he gives talks now, he’s much more careful to acknowledge religious moderates and their contributions (even if he ultimately discounts religion itself).

    In many ways, I think we can blame the Bush Administration for the polarization that has prompted an increase in the books against religion. It’s aweful hard to remember all the good things that people of faith do, when you have such an obvious and global example of how religiously inspired people can go so very wrong.

  24. 2008 June 13
    takahe83 permalink

    Haha, it’s more that I unfortunately can’t debate any more, because I know really nothing more about the book. The points preceding my comment all seemed good, I just can’t add anything else intelligent to the conversation without more information.

  25. 2008 June 13
    Thomas permalink

    Alright, now I’m confused. So we’re all sitting around talking about how the “truth claims” of religion don’t really need to be debunked because whether or not the things described in the bible happened isn’t important to what people get out of their faith. First of all, I don’t understand these sophisticated people are that you guys are talking about; these people who don’t actually believe stuff in the bible. If they have such a sophisticated, objective view of the stories in the bible and don’t take everything literally then why do they need these stories at all? If they’re so sophisticated that they realize that Jesus is a metaphor or whatever then why don’t they leave Jesus behind and just focus on the message and forget the Jesus/Resurrection story? Why do they worship the man?

    I mean, when I watch a powerful movie I don’t start worshiping the director. I take away the message perhaps and apply it to my life and all the other elements are immaterial. I don’t set up a religion.

    Why can’t these “sophisticated” Christians leave behind all the superfluous nonsense and just talk about the messages? Help me out here.

    Why can’t we grow up and leave the stories behind? If you’re telling me that nobody takes anything literally in the holy texts it seems like they’ve served their purpose. Once you reach a certain age you should just be able to leave the bloody things behind.

    I don’t need men that have been dead for centuries to instruct me how to live in a moral way. I have to wonder what’s wrong with these people that they need these books and these tall tales. Rather than receiving extra respect for their faith and piety these people should be less respected– after all, their good behavior needs reinforcement. That doesn’t seem to impressive to me.

    Why do people need Jesus? Why do they have to love him and be loved back? If “sophisticated” Christians are really in love with an idea and not a man why not stop the worshiping and the loving and just go to Church and sing about the ideas? Once again, if I see a really powerful movie I don’t have to, say, believe the fictional story in it is true or talk about how I love the plot and I have a relationship with the plot. That doesn’t make the message of the film anymore powerful in my life. I just simply talk about and think about the message and that’s that.

    Sorry, this was a bit stream of consciousness.

  26. 2008 June 13

    Thomas,

    So, if I understand you correctly, your point is that if a significant number of Christians correctly (in your view) understand the Bible to largely be a collection of myths, then why do they need to latch on to and build a set of beliefs surrounding said myths, when they can just take the lesson and walk on.

    I don’t think you actually understand what religion is. Religions aren’t simply a collection of “tall tales” and “myths” which people believe in. A religion is a collection of rites and rituals, usually standardized, and usually experienced communally. That’s where the power of religion lies. In the very real feeling that you – the individual believer – are connected to believers both near and far; around the world and through history.

    That communal experience is what attracts people to religion, and it is what keeps them there. It’s the reason why you can’t simply reduce Christianity, for example, to what’s in the Bible. These experiences are more than simple words and stories.

  27. 2008 June 13

    One more thing, not only does equating moral guidance with simple “reinforcement” not make any sense, but your repeated insistence that the Bible amounts to nothing more than simple fairy tales betrays a distinct lack of knowledge or familiarity with, well, the entire Bible.

    There is a reason, after all, why theologians have been arguing with each for close to 2000 years. The Bible simply isn’t a quick and easy list of commands. It is a remarkable book filled with nuance, contradictions, and things that are outright repugnant. The Bible isn’t simple, and you shouldn’t pretend like it is.

    (And as an addendum to my previous comment; religions provide a common language of morality more than anything else. They enable people from vastly different backgrounds to discuss moral issues in language which is clear and familiar. Perfect example: the Civil Rights Movement. But, I forgot, those people were just silly and deluded, right?)

  28. 2008 June 14
    Dmitry permalink

    No way, young Durkheim. If you define a religion to be a “collection of rites and rituals, usually standardized, and usually experienced communally,” then you roll into the definition all sorts of things that no sensible person would normally describe as “religion.” Traffic patterns are a collection of “rites and rituals,” standardized and practiced communally, but are they really a religion? Nor is this definition successfully tailored by introducing the clause that “religions provide a common language of morality more than anything else.” Among even the major world religions there exist mystical or charismatic strains that dwell little on morality; and around the world there remain in existence religions (recognizable as such) which are not linked with morality in any significant way – a fundamental finding of the anthropology of religion (Swanson’s Birth of the Gods was one of the original studies on this topic, I believe).

  29. 2008 June 15
    Howard permalink

    Jamelle, at some point you said that the belief that there is no god is only a hunch, that you cannot know for sure. Absolute truth can never be known by definition. You might think there is a sky over your head, but how do you know that it isn’t a painting or a hallucination, how do you know that you aren’t in the matrix right now? You don’t know, but for practical purposes you assume that the sky is real, until it is proven to be otherwise (and I think a healthily skeptic perspective might even doubt proof that the sky doesn’t exist, at least to a certain extent).
    The point I’m trying to get to is you can claim that any law of physics is not absolutely known for sure. The example I will use is The first law of conservation of mass, stating that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. You can legitimately argue that just because we have never seen a case where matter is created or destroyed does not mean that such an occurrence cannot happen. This is theoretically true, we cannot say that this law is ABSOLUTELY true, but since at no point has man ever found actual evidence that matter can be created or destroyed we assume (for all practical purposes) that the first law of conservation of mass is true.
    For every day purposes it makes sense to assume that god does not exist, because nobody has actually experienced god in such a way that can prove his existence. People have had experiences of god, but these experiences are usually individual and personal and cannot be demonstrably reproduced. The human mind is complex and the power of suggestion is such that people are capable of convincing themselves of many things, without a practical need for these concepts. In fact it is necessary for humans to make mistakes and they must come across many wrong ideas before they come to a right idea. These wrong ideas seem right until they are proven to be wrong. However in the case where someone makes the claim that something exists it cannot be proven that this thing does not exist except by not finding it. You can always say, oh you didn’t find it because it’s somewhere else, but until someone shows it to exist it is impractical to believe in it’s existence. Should humanity waste it’s time looking for leprechauns all over Ireland, just because there is always the possibility that we didn’t look in the right place yet? I think not, if we need to believe in leprechauns we will stumble upon them and there presence will be known (like actual lifeforms which we have come across). (On a side-note seeing leprechauns is caused by the ingestion of hallucinogenic anticholinergics (the only class of drug known to cause this specific hallucination) a member of this family being the anamita muscaria mushroom, found in Ireland and the rest of the northern hemisphere; God (or gods) is (are) also traditionally experienced with hallucinatory experiences, such as self-flagellation, starvation or fasting, sleep-deprivation, entheogens or drugs etc.)
    I believe you devalue humanity by saying that it is to their benefit to believe in god even if he does not exist. Humans do not have to believe in god to have the same motivation to do good, or build societies. Do birds need to believe in god to build nests and be good birds? Of course there are bad birds, but this is not because these birds do not believe in god, because the good birds do not believe in god either. The same impulses that cause man to want to do good and be humane exist in man with or without the belief in god. There are many atheists who are good people and don’t commit murder or steal or whatever.There are also many theists who commit atrocities. Any motivation to do something which is based on god, can be naturally motivated by a concept other than god, a concept that is more practical and meaningful in the realm of reality. For practical purposes of humanity it does not appear to be relevant to believe in god. Metaphysics was most useful as a precursor to science, and I believe is only mildly useful for the generation of theories now that science is a much more useful method of understanding reality. Many religious (or metaphysical concepts) are explained more accurately by science (karma=for every action there is an opposite but equal reaction, reincarnation=matter cannot be destroyed or created it only changes form). Metaphysics is certainly useful, but without science to confirm theories, those theories are not practical for everyday application.

  30. 2008 June 16

    No harm takahe83, in fact, you could read the book now with this discussion in mind, and hopefully it would provide a richer engagement with the text.

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